I just hope and pray that you can see this. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. Does not compute. Going to church in the north during those days was different. Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. This is an absolutely beautiful statement! Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. A Word to My Calvinist Friends. To be fair to Calvin and Darwin, Im not a Bulbeckist. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. A person can be a conservative Christian without being Reformed or believing in Calvinism. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions.. who needs systems & neat little boxes? I can see why many walk away . However, they are limited, just as we are. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. Maybe Im wrong on that. CALVIN! As you know, it was not written by Calvin. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. But the main thing is that Ive been a Calvinist for a long time- probably 15 years. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. I spent quite a while in these neo-Calvinist, Piper, hipster fundamentalist, etc. The only real knowledge is surrendering your mind to their interpretive assumptions on anything. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. What you believe is irrelevant. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. But are *we* the measure of truth? They never want to explain why what they believe brings God more glory than what you believe. Nope. I.E. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. Rank No. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. When there is someone who has been really, REALLY busted up by a Calvinist, I completely get where the anger comes from. The few times we have joined her at her church the pastor has focused on being examples of love and doing good in the community. Yet Calvin (and Luther Im Lutheran) were fallible and sometimes very sinful men. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life. He said I was wrong. There wasnt so much in your face going on. Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. I'd also add Thomas Cranmer to that group (leader of the English Reformation, author of the Book of Common Prayer, and most of the 39 Articles) 7. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. @ dee: Believe me, Ive tried. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. Just happy to be able to trust that God really is good again. Most churches teach Arminian theology. Look for them. You are free to jump back in and even things out, Jeff . If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . @ Jeff S: If the answer sometimes doesnt work then weve got more work to do Paige Patterson 18. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. In his opening chapter, he discussed an incident (this has happened more than once) in which a Baylor student, who had attended the church of a well known northern Calvinist, informed Olson that Olson was not a Christian. For my part, I DO understand why people look at Calvinism and reject it. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say. [deleted] 6 yr. ago. These same people are taken to task for twisting the Calvin/Tulip/Reformed beliefs on blogs. Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue :), I cannot express the relief and renewal- or perhaps, first real taste- of the joy of my salvation. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. Thank you for helping me out. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. I dont see you behaving as a bully. So thank you Jeff S. I have read John Pipers paper on why he believes what he does and have seen many debates both for and against Calvinism. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. I find it troubling too. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. People need to practice their voice till they can mature in how they use it. But, as Ilook back, I am gratified bythe number of friends who have stayed the course through the years. (LogOut/ The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child., I think Jesus meant childlike, not childish. Childlike faith and trust are good, but faith has content, and, as it says in Hebrews, we should not be satisfied all our lives with the milk of the word, but should graduate to solid food.. Apparently Imade some remark that all infants who die go to heaven. External Leaders When members begin to question the fidelity of their pastor's teaching, they rarely (regrettably) go to their pastor. @ Hester: Not in the sense that Calvinists view PSA, I think. Just want you to know that Im keeping your son-in-law in my prayers. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. Would you drink a glass of water with just a little flesh eating bacteria in it? So if you say oh yes, bringing God glory is the sole reason for mankind without ever pushing back like you did, elastigirl, their tacit assumption is that you have just conceded the soundness of their doctrine. Theres sort of a flip saying that goes get 10 Calvinists in a room and youll get 30 different opinions on what Calvinism is> Okay, that saying applies in many circumstances :). We pulled no punches, but I believe we came away with a greater respect for each other and, dare I say, love. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. With no disrespect to the contributor who mentioned them in a recent thread here, knowing the four positions on divorce (if indeed one accepts there are four) cannot make me a good husband, any more than knowing the flashpoint and auto-ignition temperature of diesel makes me a better driver. I always get a smile on my face when I get an email whichcallsme out on my pitiful understanding of the faith. Does there need to be a correction? If Im wrong, I apologize. . Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. Dee blast from the past! I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. By 'not real' I mean that the meaning is destroyed in the overall thought of the clause or sentence. from what Ive seen here, youve always been a gentleman and tolerant of others who do not believe as you do. @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! @ JeffB: Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. It was written by. CALVIN! I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. If you think I should be sensitive and hold my tongue at times, then I agree. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. It affirms that God is sovereign., Pg 79: We are only talking about it in this thread because someone brought it up as a challenge to Reformed theology. is far removed from anything I, or any other Calvinist I know, believes. 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. But are *we* the measure of truth? Some of the formers non- above-board activities may be partly an outgrowth of his beliefs. Both groups will say you dont understand their views/religion, or they say you are misrepresenting them (even if you really are not and have read lots of books by ex, or current, members of their groups who explain what the group believes). Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. When RC said their are no rogue molecules in the universe, that implies to me that God directs even the smallest action, including the tongue. I will never forget hearing so many Christians actually try to reason that we have to accept, even rejoice, that this must have been Gods plan for these precious young people. Ive become a more capable musician as a result. Right after I became a Christian, I purchased Jesus Christ Superstar! Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. @ Julie Anne: Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? Well see how well I execute on that. If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. He referred to our mutual, former experience as Bible light. I am thinking Ferengi with all of their Rules of Acquisition.. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Sproul Steve Lawson Voddie Bachham Wayne Grudem People Guilty Of Greatly Spreading The False "Free Will" Gospel: Bill Bright Billy Graham Charles Finney I dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. I, for one, *do* understand. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. CALVIN!
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